Town Hall 2/10/05
Forum Link: Original Post (Part 1) Forum Link: Original Post (Part 2) Town Hall with Robin Linden 2/10/05 Topic: Robin met with a small group and they talked about a wide range of things. Note: Names were shortened in original posting to initials. Robin Linden: Hi everybody Robin Linden: I don't have a set agenda -- whatever you want to talk about or ask questions about AH: i would like to ask a question Robin Linden: if I can shed any light on things I'll try Robin Linden: Yes? AH: some people who come to SL are already experienced in 3d building and scripting etc AH: for a lot of us its a steep learning curve Robin Linden: I know - really steep! Taun P: Thats why the Mentors exist! Robin Linden: and instructors Jemma F: I've been here 18 mths and still learning AH: some don't want to learn and just have fun. Are LL happy to have both kinds of people - creators and social players? Robin Linden: definitely Robin Linden: in many ways they support each other Robin Linden: people who build need help, customers, an audience Robin Linden: the big issue I know, has been L$ and how the social players can earn them AH: yes Robin Linden: we've tried to create an economy that allows people to earn L$ in a variety of ways -- not just through building and creation Robin Linden: playing games, basic stipends, selling services or project management, hosting parties with a cover charge, managing events, and so on MM: or even those who try to be creative, but dont seem to sell, lol TS: I really miss the simple games that used to be played where the hosts got LL dollars TS: like the texturing competitions etc ML: How can I hold a class on my land, I made a classroom, can I make it available for other instructors also? AH: yes Taun P: there's a new job service that opened recently. I have a landmark if you would like it TS: Those made me want to learn things and formally and informally TS: those are all gone Robin Linden: I'm really sympathetic to that. *I* don't even want the things I've made! MM: lol AH: i suppose there is a big wodge in the middle, I'm included, who want to be able to create but are still going through a learning process Youf course you can. You can charge rent, or a fee AH: lol ML: where is the best place to learn about hosting an event? MM: collecting at an event can be a tricky endeavor Taun P: whut oh. Robin Linden: is it possible to be an apprentice, to learn from a master and help them make things and share the income? AH: would you agree that the quality of events has gone down rather than up? TS: I have some notecards... hold on AH: a lot of repetition Jemma F: i think the evnets follow trends Robin Linden: not really. There's been a shift away from grand openings and escort parties to Tringo Jemma F: obviously tringo is well attened Taun P: Tringo does seem to be the event du jour RZ: like Bingo was Jemma F: now it is over done lol LN: we should call this Tringoland, not Second Life AH: i enjoy a game of tringo but not all day every day RZ: so it really isn't new or different, just the game itself Taun P: I haven't tried it myself! Robin Linden: there is a lot of repetition, but I think that also has to do with people using the event calendar as an advertising venue LN: seemed too laggy to me Robin Linden: which we're thinking about ways to discourage Robin Linden: what's really cool about Tringo is that it's a Second Life invention LN: this is true AH: yes Robin Linden: doesn't exist outside of SL Taun P: Robin, does anyone police the events calendar? Is there a way to put limits on the number of events programatically? Robin Linden: what do you think about the best way to improve events, besides paying for them? LN: primtionary is similar in that respect TS: It is also very good for some of us who want to relax and yet be doing something Robin Linden: is primtionary like pictionary? RZ: yes LN: yeah, except with building LN: you should try it. There's an event in an hour RZ: it is very cool Taun P: primtionary is fun Robin Linden: that sounds like fun Robin Linden: I'll have to go try it out Taun P: the 10 prim or less contests are too AH: i notice that at one time people were only allowed one event per day, now some are holding all day events at set hours Robin Linden: yes - those are frequently the ones who are using the events board for advertising Taun P: or worse, having their employees host the same event at the same location, to get around that rule. AH: yes Robin Linden: what about a system where you can give feedback points, like eBay, for great or terrible events AH: 1 even said come to here and sort your inventory out lol AH: good idea Robin Linden: someone seeking dwell, sounds like ML: yea event feedback would be wonderful LN: robin: would there be linden payments based on that, or what? Jemma F: good idea robin AH: just a big desperate i thought Robin Linden: the feedback points could also be given for transactions, for forum posts, for teaching LN: or would it be a way of sifting out "fake" advertising events? TS: I don't really like the idea of the rating system Taun P: I like a feedback system, as long as it doesn't Charge!!! to the "rating" of the event Robin Linden: it would be a better measure of reputation I think, and cut across many of the different aspects of SL TS: If you are a new instructor, it is expected that your presentation may not be up to par ML: events are good, maybe rating if it was a private forum for a group Robin Linden: then you could do a neutral rating Robin Linden: or none TS: no... I dont like it LN: so event runners would simply tell everyone to rate the event positively or they'd kick them out... ? RZ: what about evil doers who will hurt their competition by bringing down the competitors rating? TS: there are too many hidden ways to use Robin Linden: i don't know if it would make sense to give people money for the feedback numbers, although we could do a bonus like the rating bonus today TS: it BW: I don't know, I think any kind of feedback rating system is simply going to be another form of popularity contest rather than any real feedback MM: (when conversation flow allows) ...one thing that frustrates me. there are a lot of kewl tools, but a lot of them bring a lot of lag. light objects, a lot of scripts, particles. at times it feels like a tease when trying to create Robin Linden: in theory higher ratings would also bring you more traffic, more customers, etc. Taun P: if you throw out the highest and lowest rates, you end up with a median rate, like they do in say figure skating competitions RT: Would it be possible to set up something like an event "object" that can gain or loose reputation points, that you can assign and reassign to different days and locations? Like, for instance, having a DJ session that happens every week, and retains its RT: ratings from previous weeks Robin Linden: maybe Robin Linden: and a decay factor also, so as you improve the negative feedback goes away AH: does LL monitor the events listing now? TS: noooo Robin Linden: we try, but it's a lot to manage TS: I am the voice of dissention AH: yes i can understand that Robin Linden: the liaisons look for things like x-rated descriptions, multiple postings, ads AH: well i think its a good idea TS: If you just said... only 5 Tringo events today or 3 beginning building classes today AH: why are you against it Soj? Robin Linden: TS - you think it's too easy to game? TS: because I would be reated down... AH why do you think that? AH: you are a brilliant teacher - have taught me a lot Robin Linden: if there were 50 Tringo events, and all were attended by at least 5 people, then 250 people have been entertained. so who's to say it's bad to have 50 Tringo events? TS: it is hard when you are a new instructor...you need positive reinforcement not negative ratings AH: i can see your point of view TS: Becasue the other things get lost in the events calendar Robin Linden: that's the big problem I think Taun P: it might not be a bad idea to have more categories for events to fall into, so one could sort them easier. then who cares how many events are going on. I think the problem with the event calendar is it shows you everything at once. If it could be f... Jemma F: what about search filters for events Robin Linden: maybe have better categories? Taun P: filtered easier it may work better Robin Linden: ahh - TP we think alike! Taun P: hehe TS: yeah... like a Tringo section with everyone listing time and place Taun P: i just type books Robin Linden: that sounds like a fairly simple solution Robin Linden: i'll add that to the list TS: And a competitions section and a build section? TS: or only games RZ: there is a primitive search in place now for filtering MM: i wouldnt make it as specific as Tringo, as trends fade over time, but maybe an interactive games section Taun P: Robin, I'd like to see the events calendar visible in the Welcome Area again, if only with approved content Taun P: a lot of new residents have no idea what's going on AH: yes someone has come up with a new game already Jemma F: this world has gotten so big,its hard to find things RT: How about setting up a "Suggested event" category where someone brings up an idea, then people post what time they may be able to come, whether they would be able to come, etc, and then event can be created to accomodate people or something. Like an RSVP Taun P: a "Games of Chance" section would incorporate anything you can win money at that has a game theme Jemma F: basic information RT: list that's not actually an event yet Robin Linden: good idea TP. I don't know why it isn't there anymore, but we're about to rebuild the welcome area, so i'll see if we can get that in Taun P: oh, that's wonderful to hear! TS: I go to a lot of thngs on the spur of the moment Taun P: the WA needs a facelift TS: If you have seating... suggest that it is newbie easy TS: (or some of us oldbies too) TS: Circular isn't Robin Linden: I hope it will be more of a community gathering place, but for smaller groups AH: More seating would be nice Robin Linden: agreed! Taun P: I would love to see more of an Peer to Peer interactive welcome environment RT: Oh yeah, Robin, do you by any chance know whether LL is even considering working on implementing things like joystics, or upgrading its 3D engine in any way? I've ran into some stereo bugs here Robin Linden: we're taking a new look at the rendering engine Taun P: when people are born into the world after Prelude they really don't have any idea what they are doing... more instruction is almost certianly needed. AH: mm definitely - as a fairly recent newbie myself i was lost Robin Linden: Uncle Linden is going to be holding a meeting on Friday with more of a focus on bugs Robin Linden: he's more technically inclined than I, and might be able to answer bug questions better RT: Really? Cool. Will you be testing to make sure all objects rendered are at a correct depth? Currently attached objects (including eyeballs) are at a depth that's different from the human av, so when looking in stereo, people look like their eyeballs are RT: a foot in front of them AH: lol Taun P: back to the event calendar idea, would it be a good idea to post a forum thread asking for new categories for the events calendar, and then a poll after that to whittle them down, and incorporate into the system? Robin Linden: I don't think we've ever looked at things in stereo. I'll suggest that RT: thanks Robin Linden: Could be Taun. Why don't you start something on the events forum? Taun P: stereo? ooh ... that's an interesting (and possibly headache inducing) idea! Taun P: Will do, Robin! Robin Linden: Yeah - it sounds like what happens when you only wear one contact lens AH: i think its a pity so few people read the forums. It can be a dog eat dog thing but i have learned a lot Robin Linden: MM - you had a question earlier about lag? RT: I have stereo, and it works wonderfully, except for the googly eyeballs and weird attachements thing. It's great to build while seeing in stereo Jemma F: i do if she doesnt lol Robin Linden: Our forum readership is about on a par with what other worlds have experienced AH: they take no prisoners lol Robin Linden: No kidding! Taun P: the forums can be a scary place for new residents AH: totally Robin Linden: What's your question Jemma? Jemma F: what is the biggest reason for lag? Jemma F: i have heard so many different opinions Robin Linden: OK - this is a long one...be patient Robin Linden: First - lag means different things to different people based on their experience Robin Linden: "The video is jerky or stuttering" -- this comes from low framerate. It means the client machine is near or below the min spec, or the preferences are set too high, or maybe they have something else running in the background. We've had people complain Robin Linden: about lag and then we discover they're trying to run SL, Photoshop and download music all at the same time Robin Linden: Second: "I can rotate but not move" - or "it takes forever to start walking". Robin Linden: This is usually a network problem (rotation is clientside, movement is serverside). Again - turn all other programs off, check for firewall or internet security products, downloads or basically anything pulling more bandwidth than IM Robin Linden: "I'm moving slowly MIGHT be the server. We can check if there's a physics problem. The liaisons or support can help with that. Robin Linden: Does that help? Jemma F: yes but i meant more from a building side AH: i just crash when i am in a lag area RZ: or putting your clothes on Jemma F: textures or scripts TS: I must say that in all the time I have been here... I have never run into a liason or mentor anywhere except a scheduled events Robin Linden: Those things -- textures - rezzing new objects or clothes -- all take a lot of bandwidth as they are streamed to your machine TS: do they only hang out in newbie places? Robin Linden: They spend a lot of time on the OIs making sure newbies aren't stuck or lost Taun P: TS - I'm almost always in the Welcome Area Robin Linden: they tp to griefing problems, and the rest of the time they tend to sit and answer IMs TS: ok TS: just wondered Robin Linden: If you've been in Live Help you know there's a HUGE volume of IM traffic Taun P: yup! RZ: but what is nice, I always get a fairly prompt response and that is appreciated TS: Most of the time, Live Help has been very good AH: nods Robin Linden: That's good to hear! KK: i've always gotten a fast response too from Live Help Robin Linden: Have any of you been in Live help? RT: no, where's that at? Taun P: raises hand RZ: I am not a masochist Robin Linden: Tried but haven't been accepted yet? Robin Linden: haha RZ: Robin Linden: R - you can sign up on the sl website Taun P: it's a really hard job, but totally worth it SH: I've had good experiences with Live Help. Less so with abuse resolution. Robin Linden: there's a volunteers page RT: Is live help an online chat thing? Ah, ok. Going to go check it out Robin Linden: Tell me about abuse resolution Sally SH: Well, I've only butted heads with it but once. The experience nearly made me cancel my account. Robin Linden: wow - that's not good! Robin Linden: what happened? SH: I went to a club with some of the Baku crowd. Yes, they aren't exactly loved. But the event seemed harmless so I went. They went to a club as mimes with blank protest signs. SH: Nothng was said . Nothing was done. To anyone. They went, and, riverdanced, as mimes. SH: They kinda gathered around a few people and danced, the patrons thought it was funny. The owner FLIPPED OUT SH: He banned everyone from the club, and I was fine with that, it was his place. SH: So I didn't give it a second thought until he starts IMing me asking about it. He said the sim crashed. This was news to me. I told him I had no idea about it at all. SH: So mid conversation with him suddenly I'm banned from the game. SH: No explanation. Just GONE. SH: It's an hour ban. I figure, okay, they're slapping everyone's wrist. No biggie. Robin Linden: did you get an IM from the liaison? SH : None. SH: Nothing. Robin Linden: ok - then what happened? SH: Then on top that, suddenly, the hour ban becomes a 3 day ban. SH: No explanation. Robin Linden: You should have had an email explaining the violation. SH: I did, it was very vague. It said 'Something was done. We are investigating.' SH: Essentially. Robin Linden: We've found that many of our emails don't go through because someone has changed their email, or it gets caught in a filter. SH: It took them nearly five days to reply to the email I sent them explaining the situaton. SH: By then, my ban was up anyway. SH: What really got me is, I had never been called on abuse by anyone in the game, pretty much ever. Robin Linden: When we do respond we always cite the community standards violation. It might seem vague (Harassment in xyz sim). SH: And then suddenly a 3 day ban for something I didn't really know anything about. Robin Linden: That doesn't sound right. AH: its probably to do with the people you were with S RT: That's what I said SH: I think it's largely because I happened to be with the Baku people. AH: who are known griefers Robin Linden: It could have been that Alexa, or maybe a mis-interpreted chat log. SH: I personally feel, if someone is going to be banned from the game, they should be spoken to in game first. Robin Linden: We try not to kick people out because of guilt by association though. Robin Linden: I agree. Occasionally it doesn't happen though, and that's when there's a large group Robin Linden: a frantic land owner, and a liaison trying to catch all the perpetrators at once Taun P: S, were you dressed in the same outfit and carrying a sign? Were you also Riverdancing? RZ: I bet you won't go do that again though RZ: I agree an explaination is warranted SH: Right, it was still a very messy situation though. Especially since it would have also been a first offense. Robin Linden: When you did get a response after your ban was up, was it any more useful? RZ: Side-note question, does "Live Helpers must be at least 90-days old with a clean Linden Rapsheet" include a neg rating? SH: Not really. I may even still have the email saved. It basically said that abuse was reported in X zone, and all reports are investigated. It seemed very mechanical. Robin Linden: No R - just no warnings or suspensions SH: It wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much either if the initial hour ban hadn't become a 3 day ban. while others who recieved an hour ban for the same circumstance were back, in an hour. SH: It felt like someone was flailing at the controls and just picking out names on a list to punish at random levels. Robin Linden: S - when did all this happen? Robin Linden: Maybe we could take this offline and I can see if I can get a better understanding of what might have been going on on our side SH: It was back right before Christmas. Robin Linden: ok - thanks. I'll look into it and see if i can get you any more illumination. RZ: THis problem is also relayed on the message boards by various people SH: So, it was a little while ago, and I'm largely over it. I just thought, it was worth mentioning to maybe note to the people who do the bannings to investigate a little deeper. RZ: same story different offenses SH I just found the email. It all seems pre-generated except for the one line Offense and Discipline lines. I can forward it to you if you want. Robin Linden: absolultely. There are occasional mistakes, although generally when there's disagreement its a difference of opinion as to how bad the offense was Robin Linden: thanks! Robin Linden: anybody else have anything to add? Questions, ideas? Robin Linden: OK - do you think this was worth doing? Should I hold meetings like this regularly? KK: i have a question JC: Yes! ML: yes definitely! AH: do you think LL will ever introduce being able to buy L$ via you with Gom and pay by credit card to LL? Jemma F: yes RZ: absolutely Taun P: i think this was a great idea :-) Robin Linden: K? what's your question, and then I'll answer A. KK: are we able to pay for SL via money order and snail mail Robin? Robin Linden: No K, not on a regular basis. We don't have anyone here to process checks and money orders. Robin Linden: Maybe when we get bigger. KK: ok. thanks. Robin Linden: A -- we regularly debate the idea of offering L$ directly to users Taun P: I would love to see the L$ payments for land tier come back. Robin Linden: As you know that's a regular feature of the There economy. AH: i didn't know RZ: paypal will accept the user to set up direct withdrawl based on account number RZ: with validation AH: i hate paypal lol Robin Linden: If we do, there are many who feel that it's a potential conflict of interest. RZ: gotta go with what ya got Robin Linden: What we've proposed is to enable the exchange of L$ through 3rd parties like GOM CK: i thought you could buy L money directly from SL AH: mm Robin Linden: by setting up a transfer type system in world. Robin Linden: Then in theory more exchanges like GOM could develop, using the API KK: what's API? Robin Linden: Application program interface - basically something that would let people set up systems that would talk to the one we create in SL KK: k RZ: traffic/dwell RZ: when I look at it, and it says 5 Jemma F: oh 1 more thing.amy chance of getting a land teir inbetween the 40 and 75 a month levels? RZ: what does that mean to me? Robin Linden: J - possible, but I don't have a timeframe TS: So, basically, people with money could come in and buy up all the land and subdivide it and make it even harder for the onew without to buy land? RZ: yes and they do AH: they do that now lol TS: yeah I guess. OZ grumbles at how ridiculous it is to afford land TS: It sure is a struggle to find $$ to buy land Robin Linden: S - are you saying that based on adding tiers? JC: More granularity on the tier would be fabulous JC: I'd buy more tier if I could notch it up slower OZ: I'm ok with paying just some US$ for land, or just some L$ for land, but to have to pay thousands of L$ for land, then start paying out of my own pocket? Blech TS: no... more on the use of US$ to convert to $LL TS: I recently purchased land for a group and it is tough making ends meet even for the amount we have TS: luckily someone gave us the land.. Robin Linden: I don't think it would change the way people buy land. But what if you didn't have to pay $9.95/month for a premium membership to get L$2000/month. Robin Linden: What if you could just buy what you needed when you wanted to? TS: I have been going nuts for months trying to figure out how to do it OZ: Robin that would be hugely successful, if it cost less than GOM prices AH: nods SH: From a player standpoint that would be the bee's knees. From a corporate standpoint that would be terrible. =) Robin Linden: I suspect the market would fluctuate some, the way it does now. We wouldn't set a fixed price. AH: i would rather trust LL to debit my card that i do PayPal AH: than Robin Linden: We're working with PayPal to recognize virtual goods so they'll back up a fraud claim LT: there are privacy issues as well Robin Linden: Of what sort L? LT: It's my understanding that using PayPal playewr to player exposes your RL identity. Robin Linden: Hmm that's probably true. LT: I would rather that LL only had that info Robin Linden: Although not on eBay, I don't think. AH: i agree RZ: I have no problem with Paypal it's great Robin Linden: there you'd tie an email address to an SL name AH: i see one person who sells L$ on ebay Jemma F: i've never had any troubles with it either CK: nor me Robin Linden: well thanks to everyone for coming by. I appreciate the thoughts, and I've started a list of ideas we can feed into the dev plans Category:Town Hall Logs